2004 198 V-Series with Gelcoat bubbles

[skiff_rick]

Hello All;

Looks like a great forum for CS owners.
Pleae forgive me if this post is in the wrong location. I didn't want to limit it to a particular model of boat because it could occur on any model.

I have a 2003 198 V-Series that I have been really happy with.
I bought the boat brand new, and have taken good care of it.
I recently had an issue come up that I need to get some advice on.
I usually use the Skiff for weekend fishing on the flats of west central Florida.
This year I put it in the fresh water (Lake Tarpon) behind my house for a few weeks.
When I took it out of the water I noticed that there were bubbles in the gelcoat, all over the surface of the boat, below the water line.

I've had several boats over the last 20 years and have never seen any thing like this. I currently have a 1979 Ski Natique that stays in the lake continuously, 6-7 months out of the year. It has never developed bubbles in the gelcoat.

I wanted to post a photo of the bubbles, but couldn't easily figure out how to do it.

Has anyone else had this kind of problem with their CS?
If so, what was the factory's response?

I've taken the first step of working through my dealer to see if CS will do anything about this under their warranty.

Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!
Skiff_Rick

[Fillet1]

Hi Rick and welcome!

Have you poked a hole in one to see if water runs out? Sounds like blisters, but I dont know whether they occur in fresh water? Basically, water permeates the gel coat and builds up pressure in the laminate my mixing with chemical residue in the fiberglass and causes blisters. Hatteras had a problem with them in the past.

[skiff_rick]

Thanks Fillet1.
Not sure if I'm ready to start poking holes.
I want to see what CS factory warranty department says first.
Here is photo of transome:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd129/skiff_rick/DSCN2606.jpg
These bubbles are on the entire bottom surface as well.

[Willie]

Did you get that picture sent to CS yet? Never seen that one before.............Willie

[Harry]

Wow that's wierd.

Curious as to what CS has to say about this. Have you contacted them yet?
Should have a 5 year warranty on the hull I believe.

I wouldn't poke anything yet either until I hear back from them.

Keep us posted.

[skiff_rick]

Hi Guys;

I finally got to speak with someone at CS. They never returned my calls. I had to keep calling them until I got a person instead of the voice mail prompt......

I was told that the problem was because I left the boat in the water. I explained that I had only left the boat in the water for a couple of weeks. They told me that if the boat was intended to be left in the water for ANY amount of time, it should have been bottom painted.
They said that the gelcoat bubbling was not covered under the warranty.

They said that they would provide the gelcoat, but would not pay for any other material or labor to have the boat fixed.

The lady I was speaking to was just relaying the information from what she was told.
I told her that I did not agree with their analysis.
I asked her to have the person who reviewed my file (that included photos) please give me a call.

I think I'm fighting a losing battle, but we'll see.

I'll post any other follow-ups.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Rick

[Willie]

That sounds like a -----------------------..... 001 Before I got a boat in salt water, I had never heard of bottom paint............ 006

[skiff_rick]

I thought the same thing Willie.
I was really hoping to get a better response from CS.
Hopefully I will get better results when I can talk directly to a manager at CS.

What really stinks is that I was just getting ready to "Upgrade" to a larger boat. Now I'm afraid that I won't be able to sell the skiff.

Thanks;
Rick

[skiff_rick]

Still no additional response from CS regarding my issue.
I left another voice mail message with their warranty department today.

So much for CS having a responsive warranty department......

Regardless of the outcome from my issue, every CS owner should be aware that they are not suppose to leave their boats in the water for "ANY PERIOD of time without the bottom being coated" (This was a quote from the warranty department).

Rick

[Shakespeare]

I just called my dealer and inquired as to if an owner's manual was available for my new boat purchase. The answer was "no" with an explanation that there aren't too many boat manufacturers that supply an owner's manual. My next question was with respect to how long it would take for the gel coat to bubble up if left in the water for an extended period of time. His concern was more for barnacle buildup in a salt water environment, and if left in the water for a week or more he would recommend bottom paint. He felt that it would take many many weeks for the gel coat to bubble. Playing the role of a novice boat owner here... I would think there would be some very fundamental information that should be passed on to the consumer via an owner's manual. To have the warranty department make a statement that in effect is not supported by any type documentation could be construed as negligent and without basis. My $.02

Mike C.

[Fillet1]

The gel coat should not bubble if a boat is left in the water without paint. The paint prevents growth not gel defects. I left mine in the water for a week without paint and its fine. Bottom paint wears away over time. So if your paint wears during a season and a the gel is exposed to the water it is normal for bubbles to appear? Thats ridiculous. What about at the water line where the water is in constant contact with the gel coat? Or the decks inside the boat that stay wet? You could recover a sunken boat that has laid on the bottom for a year and it wount have bubbles like that!!!

A three year old boat that isnt supposed to have contact with water........ 006 I am at a loss.

[Harry]

That's exactly what I said Rich. I FWD this post & issue to CS for Rick, to see if it would help him out. I told them what you had just said.

I never heard of such a thing either..... 001

[Fillet1]

They look like regular osmotic blisters. They are caused by lower quality resins and poor hull layup. Water permeates the gel coat (even with bottom paint), mixes with chemical/fiberglass residues in voids in the laminate and then by osmosis the chemical mixture in the gel "pulls" more water through the gel, building up pressure and deforming the gel into a blister.

I dont want to formulate any opinions on how this is handled until we find out what CS does, if anything for skiffRick (assuming that the hull is under warranty). But if I were CS I wouldnt want that hull out there representing its product whether it was under warranty or not.

[o2bfishn]

Fillet1,

I believe you are right, osmotic blisters, more than likely caused by a poor lay-up and/or water inside the hull.


skiff-rick,

Stay at it with CS you'll get to the right person sometime, they don't want a hull and pics. like that out on the water or the web. They know that problem is not your doing but a issue with the gelcoat, most anyone who has owned a boat knows this too. And buyers will run from companys that don't stand behind there product. Pleased keep us posted.


o2bfishn

[skiff_rick]

Hello everyone;

Thanks again to all the replies.
It looks like my discussions with CS are over.
The end result is probably about what everyone expected... they aren't going to do anything. Actually they did offer to send me the gelcoat to do the repair. I think this would only represent a fraction of the cost to repair this severe blistering.

Bottom line is that you better bottom paint your boat if you intend on keeping your boat in the water for ANY amount of time. The sad thing is that even if it is bottom painted, they won't do anything about blistering if it still happens (which some research says will still occur using some types of paints).

For anyone interested, I received quite a few replies to the post I placed at www.thehulltruth.com.

If anyone cares to read the details of my conversation with CS "Customer Service", the email thread is cut-n-pasted below, starting with the original email I sent them from their website
----------------------------
This is the email I sent on 10/21/07 to their main contact location on their website:
I have severe blistering of the gelcoat. I did not agree with the assesment I received from Trish in the Warranty department and asked her to please have the manager get in touch with me. It's been about a week and I haven't received a call. I left a second voice mail with the warranty department today.
I would really like the opportunity to discuss this issue with someone at CS.
I do not believe this issue is a result of gelcoat imperfections. It is more like the gelcoat is getting ready to completely come off of the hull.
I have posted this issue on a couple of boat related forums.
www.carolinaskiffowner.com
www.thehulltruth.com
Look for posts from "Skiff_rick" if you care to see the discussions related to my issue.
Any assistance you could offer in helping me get a call back on this would be greatly appreciated.
Best regards;
David (Rick) Walker

From: Sabrina Spires [mailto:sabrinaspires@carolinaskiff.com]
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 4:00 PM
To: rickw
Subject: Carolina Skiff Inquiry
David,
I am very aware of your problem. I have read your posts last week on this and I have also talked with Trish last week and this week about this. We do not warrant the gel coat. I know this sounds odd but this is a common problem that many boat owners have. Take a look at the article that I have attached in the link below. The elements that are in certain water cause blisters in gel coat because it is porous. That is why it is good to take extra precaution to get the bottom painted. I have also attaché a copy of our warranty issue. I talked with Trish and her manager and they both told me that they have talked to you last week about this. This isn’t just Carolina Skiff that is saying this. You can research it also. In the article below there are two PH D’s that have researched it.
Link to research: http://www.daviscoltd.com/nams/Documents/Blister_Report.html
Sabrina Spires
CAROLINA SKIFF LLC

From: Rick Walker
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 6:18 PM
To: 'Sabrina Spires'
Subject: RE: Carolina Skiff Inquiry
Hi Sabrina;
Thank you for your reply.
The hull warranty specifically states that it does not cover “Gelcoat, finish, stress cracks, optional accessories………”.
I believe what I have on my boat is not simply a problem with the Gelcoat finish.
I assume that you have seen the photo of a small section from my transom. The entire bottom of my boat looks the same as this photo.
The severity of the blistering, along with the fact that this occurred after leaving the boat in the water for only a couple of weeks, points to something more than just a “Gelcoat finish” problem.
If you viewed the responses from the posts at the two forums I listed, you can see the surprise from “Boat Owners” regarding my problem.
I also have a 1979 Correct Craft Ski Nautique that stays in the water 6-8 months of the year. It has no blistering.
If this blistering occurred over the course of many years, with the boat getting left in the water a few weeks out of the year; I could understand.
Having this occur on a 4 year old boat, that was left in the water (fresh water lake), for 2-3 weeks is an indication that something is wrong.
I think you can see from the responses to my posts (over 1000 views, and 35 replies in just 1 week) that this severe blistering is not “a common problem that many boat owners have”.
You were mis-informed regarding Trish’s manager speaking to me about this.
I talked to Trish on 10/17/07 at 11:09am. Since she was only reading what was written as the diagnosis to my problem; I asked her who else I could speak to. She told me that the manager’s name was Mark. She said he wasn’t in, but she would have him call me back to discuss the problem with me.
I never received a call back from Mark, or anyone else.
I have been a happy CS owner. I love my 198 V-Series. It’s the perfect boat for the kind of fishing I do.
It’s just been very disappointing trying to deal with a very unresponsive warranty department.
Just so you know; it took my dealer over a month to get a reply from the warranty department before I even got involved (I can show you the email threads if you have any doubt about this).
I’ve never received any call backs from the messages I left with the warranty department. The only time I got to speak with Trish was when I kept calling back until I got “a person” to answer the phone.
I can’t believe that a company like Carolina Skiff is sticking to “Don’t leave you boat in the water for any amount of time, without bottom painting it” as the diagnosis to my issue.
I guess the relative cost to take care of an obvious defect with my boat is worth converting a customer from happy, to frustrated and disappointed.
David (Skiff_rick) Walker

From: Rick Walker
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:21 PM
To: 'Sabrina Spires'
Subject: RE: Carolina Skiff Inquiry
Hi Sabrina;
Should I assume from the lack of response to my email, that Carolina Skiff considers this issue closed, and does not wish to discuss it any further?
David Walker

From: Sabrina Spires [mailto:sabrinaspires@carolinaskiff.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:04 PM
To: 'Rick Walker'
Subject: RE: Carolina Skiff Inquiry
Rick,
This is not my area. I am in Customer Service. This would be a warranty issue that needs to be handled by the warranty department. I forwarded all of your emails to the warranty department. I was told that we are sending you gel coat and that Mark did answer one of your phone calls (I’m guessing that you didn’t realize that that was Trish’s manager when you were talking to him). I have done my research on this. Matter of fact, I have read a couple of articles on it this morning. According to the research that I have done there is no real known cause for blistering and there is no real known solution. The only precautions that can be taken are to have the bottom painted. It does not just pertain to our boats; this problem pertains to lots of fiberglass boats. This is a problem that has been going on for years in the boat industry. There have been many tests ran and a research study was even done funded by the US Coast Guard. Gel coat is porous and water can seep through it. Our warranty clearly states that we do not cover gel coat. I would be willing to say that most boat companies that you will check with do not cover gel coat in their warranties either. You may want to do some research on this topic to see what I am talking about.
Thanks,
Sabrina Spires
CAROLINA SKIFF LLC

From: Rick Walker
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:01 PM
To: 'Sabrina Spires'
Subject: RE: Carolina Skiff Inquiry

Hi Sabrina;

Thank you for the reply.
As you can probably surmise, I have recently done quite a bit of research into this as well.
I think there is quite a bit of evidence out there that points to low quality resins and workmanship as a cause for this kind of blistering.

If this is such a widespread issue, and there is nothing manufacturers can do to stop it, why doesn’t Carolina Skiff specifically state that bottoms must be painted to prevent this from occurring?

I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but I can assure you that I have never spoken to Mark. As I said before, I only spoke to Trish one time.
Perhaps he spoke to someone at my dealer regarding my issue, but he has never given me the courtesy of returning my calls to directly speak to me regarding this issue. I don’t think this speaks very highly of Carolina Skiffs customer service.

Regards;
David (Rick) Walker

From: Sabrina Spires [mailto:sabrinaspires@carolinaskiff.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 3:30 PM
To: 'Rick Walker'
Subject: RE: Carolina Skiff Inquiry

Mr. Walker,
Thank you for your response. If you have any other questions please see your Carolina Skiff dealer.
Thanks,

Sabrina Spires
CAROLINA SKIFF LLC

[Fayetteguy]

In the end its all about the moola. sorry to hear all this.....im sorry but if a company has character you figure they would step up and do the right thing...im not CS bashing bc i love mine and have talked to some awesome and helpful people at CS, this is just kinda dissapointing to me.

-matt

[Randell]

Sea Hunt and Grady White both address blistering in their Warranty Statement.
It is a shame that all Manfacturers know about this issue yet they do not
seem to be able to correct it. ??? ???

Ten-Year Hull Limited Warranty
(a) SEA HUNT warrants to the original purchaser for a period of ten years from the date of delivery
to the original purchaser that each SEA HUNT boat will be free from defects in material and workmanship
under normal recommended use.
(b) SEA HUNT will repair or replae, at it's option, any SEA HUNT hull found to have a structural
defect, provided the original purchaser returns the boat to SEA HUNT at it's plant in Lexington, SC,
or, at SEA HUNT's option, by an Authorized SEA HUNT Marine Dealer. Transportation charges to and
from the place of repair will be the responsibility of the original purchaser.
(c) This Ten-Year Hull Limited Warranty does not apply to non-structural hull surface changes, such
as fading, checking, crazing, blisters, and gelcoat cracks.


ONE YEAR MATERIAL AND WORKMANSHIP WARRANTY
Grady-White further warrants to the original retail purchaser of each Grady-White boat that under
normal use, it will be free from defects in workmanship and material for a period of 12 months from
the date of delivery to the original retail purchaser. Necessary repairs under this warranty will be
made free of charge at Grady-White’s factory in Greenville, North Carolina, or at an authorized
In addition, also excluded are gel coat cracking, gel coat
crazing, gel coat blistering or fading, chrome, windshields, glass breakage, all vinyl upholstery and canvas,instruments and gauges, and leakage around windshields, windows, hatches, and other apertures.

~ Randell

[Fayetteguy]

all i can say is wow, whered he come from? just for something happy to look at here..... 003

[emsiegel]

he probably from carolina skiff if you noticed hes only made one post and the one he made was bashing a guy who complained....

[o2bfishn]

You maybe right emsiegel, his first post, won't here from him again.

skiff-rick, I know what the warranty states but man its only what 3 years old and its all over the wetted surface of the hull. I stay at it with them, a lawyer that deals with comsumer products may help. I love my skiff but lots of people that read of your issues with CS will cross them off their list. Thats all ready happening on THT.Keep us posted, please.


o2bfishn

[emsiegel]

I don't think that a whole lot is goin to come from CS because hull blistering is a common problem with fiberglass hull boats. Just regular bottom paint doesn't prevent blistering but if you get an epoxy osmosis treatment under the bottom paint, that will prevent bubbles. I do think that there is a chance thought that your hull didn't get enough gelcoat sprayed on it when it was put together. A thin spot on the gelcoat could allow water to seep through and cause your problem.